Thanks for this Daniel! I do see where we can look at the intertwining of sex and gender ethics up against the principle of morality.
Sexuality and gender are viewed as part of God's design for humanity which would mean that these aspects are not just social constructs but intrinsic parts of God's creation that reflect His purposes and order. So, I still hear your words playing to a public audience as at times we may try to evolve with society instead of staying true to the authority of the Bible.
You stated that “we are not closer or farther away from God by virtue of anything according to the flesh—least of all our gender, sexual orientation, marital status or kid count.” In Paul’s letter to Philippi, he was contending that we can’t count our finite human glory or understanding of life in the flesh as he once did as Saul.
My approach in seeking to better understand your new conclusion around these concepts begs me to question the larger issue of sin which is what we’re really glazing past.
So, to be forthcoming without any assumptions, Christians that choose to evolve with these beliefs can typically be narrowed down to a person’s individual struggle with this lifestyle vice (either public or private) and/or or they have close relationships with those within that community and have since evolved to be more inclusive.
I just wanted to share my thoughts since you asked dear friend and appreciate our continued faith dialogues.
You're welcome. This is definitely not the end all be all of the conversation of the value of sexuality and gender among the people of God. Bodies matter and we inhabit them for a reason, but that reason is never to gratify the flesh nor to exclude us by nature of the flesh from being the people of God and owing one another the honour, respect and submission due to our siblings.
I have addressed my views on sin in other articles but I will say the traditional view of "sin as lack" is unhelpful and dare I say damaging to the people of God as it denies God's good creation. We are still created good, and choose evil. Inherent in us is still the sin of Adam which are the consequences of generations of believing lies about God, Ourselves and wider Creation and those lies are inherited for us to believe in the form of ongoing generational Trauma.
I do not condemn a woman preaching because to be honest it bears no consequence on my spirituality what she does but bears every responsibility on me to obey the Spirit of God declaring the Word of God through her. I feel the same about LGBTQ+. Their spiritual journey is their own--I don't "allow" LGBTQ+ to be a part of my fellowship I get out of the way of the gate they are entering through which is Jesus. They are not climbing over the wall to get past Jesus and so they should not have to climb over me when Jesus has let them in. I have no horse in their race except to love them towards obedience to Christ who calls us to love them as ourselves who we do not deny the fellowship of church nor the opportunity of service.
In my original response I replied that the list of sins (as it is usually understood) which we allow in the pulpit is extensive--some of us even cite unrepentant murderers in our faith lineage who were not only allowed to preach but were founding members of our protestant traditions. If we can cite unrepentant murderers as faithful believers how can we not allow our LBGTQ+ siblings into the fold? This is only one example, if we were to include every unrepentant sinner within the people of God from the beginning of the record until now we would see that at one time or another grace was offered and they accepted salvation though they remain unchanged in an area we would have excluded them for and missed the Spirit of God in them.
I do not struggle with this particular vice, nor do I particularly know anyone that this directly affects--a few acquaintances perhaps and a family member of one of my fellowship but to be honest, it has been a natural shifting towards love which has meant getting out of the way of people who are calling out to Jesus.
I hope this makes sense. I am not interested in preserving a time capsule of faith nor in progressing into believing lies about God, my siblings, or the wider creation. I am interested in seeing the people of God united in love, faith and hope in the gospel which has nothing to do with our orientation in the flesh, and the sooner we cast off these notions of material affecting immaterial the sooner our true unity will start to take place.
Perhaps in a coming article I will write about Paul's "allowance," of married Elders despite his clear warnings against believers being married and his own practice of celibacy which He passed on through Timothy and Titus. It seems that Paul's base-line was, "don't allow what you think bodies are for, to get in the way of your spiritual purpose," and that his concession to allow married elders is based on the premise that they have shown that even though they are married they spiritually "act as if they were not". I would offer this as precedent to those with any form of attraction be it cis or LGBTQ+. We ought to regard them according to the Spirit and not the flesh and they ought to not let what they think bodies are for to get in the way of our Spiritual purpose.
It seems you're advocating for a broader, more inclusive understanding of sin and salvation, emphasizing the importance of love, acceptance, and unity within the community of believers. However, some might argue that while love and acceptance are crucial, there are still theological and doctrinal considerations regarding sexuality and gender within the context of the Christian faith. They might contend that certain biblical teachings provide a framework for understanding these issues, and interpretations vary widely within different Christian traditions. Therefore, while the call for love and unity is essential, it's also important to engage in thoughtful dialogue and study to navigate these complex issues faithfully.
If I was advocating for unity in the faith this would be absolutely correct, but in a unity of love sin remains sin as our unity is primarily with the Father and then with one another. As we fellowship in the light of love with the Father He reveals areas that He is calling us to amend but never at the cost of fellowship with Him unless we choose walk in darkness by which I mean to quench the Holy Spirit's leading into this or that area of our lives where God is expanding His presence. Our fellowship in the light is in the light of love with the Father--this is what it means to admit that we have all sinned and fall short of God's glory.
Unity in love faith and hope does not sacrifice any one for the other while unity in faith or hope usually sacrifice love first. Unity in love first says that whatever the scriptures mean, they do not contradict themselves by calling us to deny love on the basis of our theological understandings. Paul says that the one sure fire way we know we do not understand in the way we ought to understand is that we lack love. This is an alien concept to most in the body of Christ because of our usual unity in faith with one another.
Daniel, I appreciated this thought provoking article. I am grateful God transforms hearts and lives and starts where we encounter Him. We live in complex times. Have you read anything by Christopher Yuan? His testimony of coming to Christ is powerful. He wrote Out of a Far Country. His voice is a very meaningful one for this topic. He came to know Jesus through reading a Bible another inmate in prison had thrown in the garbage. God powerfully transformed him and his chaplain told him it was no problem to continue living the gay lifestyle. But he searched the Bible in his cell and said he didn’t see this in the Word. Ultimately he realized his identity was now found in Christ and God was calling him to what he called a “holy sexuality.” He teaches in seminaries and speaks often. God calls us from darkness to light. Your words remind me of this. Romans 8 is among my favorites.
Thanks for this Daniel! I do see where we can look at the intertwining of sex and gender ethics up against the principle of morality.
Sexuality and gender are viewed as part of God's design for humanity which would mean that these aspects are not just social constructs but intrinsic parts of God's creation that reflect His purposes and order. So, I still hear your words playing to a public audience as at times we may try to evolve with society instead of staying true to the authority of the Bible.
You stated that “we are not closer or farther away from God by virtue of anything according to the flesh—least of all our gender, sexual orientation, marital status or kid count.” In Paul’s letter to Philippi, he was contending that we can’t count our finite human glory or understanding of life in the flesh as he once did as Saul.
My approach in seeking to better understand your new conclusion around these concepts begs me to question the larger issue of sin which is what we’re really glazing past.
So, to be forthcoming without any assumptions, Christians that choose to evolve with these beliefs can typically be narrowed down to a person’s individual struggle with this lifestyle vice (either public or private) and/or or they have close relationships with those within that community and have since evolved to be more inclusive.
I just wanted to share my thoughts since you asked dear friend and appreciate our continued faith dialogues.
You're welcome. This is definitely not the end all be all of the conversation of the value of sexuality and gender among the people of God. Bodies matter and we inhabit them for a reason, but that reason is never to gratify the flesh nor to exclude us by nature of the flesh from being the people of God and owing one another the honour, respect and submission due to our siblings.
I have addressed my views on sin in other articles but I will say the traditional view of "sin as lack" is unhelpful and dare I say damaging to the people of God as it denies God's good creation. We are still created good, and choose evil. Inherent in us is still the sin of Adam which are the consequences of generations of believing lies about God, Ourselves and wider Creation and those lies are inherited for us to believe in the form of ongoing generational Trauma.
I do not condemn a woman preaching because to be honest it bears no consequence on my spirituality what she does but bears every responsibility on me to obey the Spirit of God declaring the Word of God through her. I feel the same about LGBTQ+. Their spiritual journey is their own--I don't "allow" LGBTQ+ to be a part of my fellowship I get out of the way of the gate they are entering through which is Jesus. They are not climbing over the wall to get past Jesus and so they should not have to climb over me when Jesus has let them in. I have no horse in their race except to love them towards obedience to Christ who calls us to love them as ourselves who we do not deny the fellowship of church nor the opportunity of service.
In my original response I replied that the list of sins (as it is usually understood) which we allow in the pulpit is extensive--some of us even cite unrepentant murderers in our faith lineage who were not only allowed to preach but were founding members of our protestant traditions. If we can cite unrepentant murderers as faithful believers how can we not allow our LBGTQ+ siblings into the fold? This is only one example, if we were to include every unrepentant sinner within the people of God from the beginning of the record until now we would see that at one time or another grace was offered and they accepted salvation though they remain unchanged in an area we would have excluded them for and missed the Spirit of God in them.
I do not struggle with this particular vice, nor do I particularly know anyone that this directly affects--a few acquaintances perhaps and a family member of one of my fellowship but to be honest, it has been a natural shifting towards love which has meant getting out of the way of people who are calling out to Jesus.
I hope this makes sense. I am not interested in preserving a time capsule of faith nor in progressing into believing lies about God, my siblings, or the wider creation. I am interested in seeing the people of God united in love, faith and hope in the gospel which has nothing to do with our orientation in the flesh, and the sooner we cast off these notions of material affecting immaterial the sooner our true unity will start to take place.
Perhaps in a coming article I will write about Paul's "allowance," of married Elders despite his clear warnings against believers being married and his own practice of celibacy which He passed on through Timothy and Titus. It seems that Paul's base-line was, "don't allow what you think bodies are for, to get in the way of your spiritual purpose," and that his concession to allow married elders is based on the premise that they have shown that even though they are married they spiritually "act as if they were not". I would offer this as precedent to those with any form of attraction be it cis or LGBTQ+. We ought to regard them according to the Spirit and not the flesh and they ought to not let what they think bodies are for to get in the way of our Spiritual purpose.
It seems you're advocating for a broader, more inclusive understanding of sin and salvation, emphasizing the importance of love, acceptance, and unity within the community of believers. However, some might argue that while love and acceptance are crucial, there are still theological and doctrinal considerations regarding sexuality and gender within the context of the Christian faith. They might contend that certain biblical teachings provide a framework for understanding these issues, and interpretations vary widely within different Christian traditions. Therefore, while the call for love and unity is essential, it's also important to engage in thoughtful dialogue and study to navigate these complex issues faithfully.
If I was advocating for unity in the faith this would be absolutely correct, but in a unity of love sin remains sin as our unity is primarily with the Father and then with one another. As we fellowship in the light of love with the Father He reveals areas that He is calling us to amend but never at the cost of fellowship with Him unless we choose walk in darkness by which I mean to quench the Holy Spirit's leading into this or that area of our lives where God is expanding His presence. Our fellowship in the light is in the light of love with the Father--this is what it means to admit that we have all sinned and fall short of God's glory.
Unity in love faith and hope does not sacrifice any one for the other while unity in faith or hope usually sacrifice love first. Unity in love first says that whatever the scriptures mean, they do not contradict themselves by calling us to deny love on the basis of our theological understandings. Paul says that the one sure fire way we know we do not understand in the way we ought to understand is that we lack love. This is an alien concept to most in the body of Christ because of our usual unity in faith with one another.
Unity in love should encompass all three (love faith and hope), leading to a holistic and robust expression of unity within the body of Christ.
Amen, Joelle
Daniel, I appreciated this thought provoking article. I am grateful God transforms hearts and lives and starts where we encounter Him. We live in complex times. Have you read anything by Christopher Yuan? His testimony of coming to Christ is powerful. He wrote Out of a Far Country. His voice is a very meaningful one for this topic. He came to know Jesus through reading a Bible another inmate in prison had thrown in the garbage. God powerfully transformed him and his chaplain told him it was no problem to continue living the gay lifestyle. But he searched the Bible in his cell and said he didn’t see this in the Word. Ultimately he realized his identity was now found in Christ and God was calling him to what he called a “holy sexuality.” He teaches in seminaries and speaks often. God calls us from darkness to light. Your words remind me of this. Romans 8 is among my favorites.
So good, Daniel!
Thank you!